Talk:Askold and Dir

Old talk

An anonymous user has tried to Ukrainize the names in this article. Since this is the English language Wikipedia, the names should be in their conventional English forms.--Wiglaf 08:40, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Óskyldr doesn't mean "strange", but "unrelatet", so óskyldr Dyri would mean "unrelated to Dyr" Síðhǫttr 23:18, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Askola and Tiera

In 865 Askold and Dir (Russian version) / Höskuldr and Dyri (Scandinanavian version) tried to settle at Kvenugard (Kainuunlinna = [Wooden] Castle of Kvenu), also known as Sambatas, but they failed. Then they attacked with many ships against Miklagard (Constantinople) but, again, with bad luck. In Finnish history these two names are given Askola and Tiera, both of Finnish Kainuunmaa (Cvenland / Kvenuland), and recorded under title Kainuulaiset kauppasoturit ie. Armed Merchants from Kainuu (Kvenu). Look also the name given for Kiova by Byzantine Parfume born Emperor Constantine (Porphyrogenitus); Kioava and Sambatas. Sambatas might have been the name for Kvenulinna given by Finno Ugric Permian branch Viatsit (Russian: Vjatitsis), also known as Budin Votjakis (Otjakis) by the Russians, which lived by that time between Dinjeper (Dnieper) and Oka. Sambatas can be derived from Sampotaus or Samposanti from Proto Perma language. Compare with mythic Kalevala´s Sampola (Place of the Richness).

Henrikki Lättiläinen (Henrici the Lettus) in his Liiviinmaan Kronikka (Livonian Chronicle) used name Kywa for Kiev just by the time (1217) prior the Mongol attack against Kiova in 1240 and Iohn de Plano Carpini in 1245 after the Mongol destruction of Kiova name Kiouw. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.89.105 (talk) 04:21, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

MILHIST B-class checklist

This article needs additional sourcing, as well as some structure. Other than that, it seems to be in fairly decent shape. Parsecboy (talk) 21:12, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Book of Veles

This is not a real chronicle. No serious professional historian would accept it as legitimate source, since it is almost certainly a forgery constructed in the 20th century. It should actually be removed completely from the introduction, if not the article. The only reason I have not done that is so that readers can look at the scholarly reference I provided. Until someone can cite something more authoritative than the website of a Ukrainian newspaper, the article should make it clear that the so-called 'chronicle' is a forgery that is not taken seriously by any but the most fringe 'historians'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.115.253 (talk) 22:08, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

File:Kievan Rus' Kyivan Rus' early formation 862 912.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Ragnarsona þattr - reference check?

The article makes the claim that "According to the Tale of Ragnar's Sons, Askold was the son of Hvitserk, and the grandson of Ragnar Lodbrok".

However, my most commonly perused copy of Ragnarsona þattr, http://www.germanicmythology.com/FORNALDARSAGAS/ThattrRagnarsSonar.html, bears no mention of Askold, or indeed any son of Hvitserk.

Can someone point to the reference that was used for this claim? --Alvestrand (talk) 20:49, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the online translation you've pointed to is the definitive version, or an abbreviated version, but there is certainly no mention of any of Hvitserk's progeny. I've added a 'citation needed' template for that claim for the moment. If it can't be confirmed via other sources, it breaks any connection between the 'Tale' any the Askold and Dir myth. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:36, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Russian wiki of thsi article is ready to be translated via google traductor or otherwise.A mention of the "conversion of Askold" is necessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2800:200:F410:1CB3:20E3:E69B:B117:1D0A (talk) 20:39, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

A "Norse" perspective

I don't really know where to start. The article mentions two theories about "Askold" that seem way out there to me.

Claiming that the name is a misunderstanding seems farfetched since "Askold" really seems to be derived from a Norse name. "Óskyldr Dýri" does not make grammatical sense. You would say "óskyldr Dýra".

I have not found a single connection between Björn, the son of Ragnar, and "Askold". I find no mention of a "Ásleikur/Áslákur Bjarnarson/Björnsson". This claim is repeated elsewhere on Wikipedia as coming from The Saga of Erik the Red but I see nothing there.

--Óli Gneisti (talk) 18:46, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

East European articles are the darker side of Wikipedia. Don't expect too much from articles like this one.--Berig (talk) 19:04, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

I simply removed the parts I mentioned. I would be very happy if someone could find reliable sources though I doubt they exist.

Óli Gneisti (talk) 10:09, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I looked up both the Nikon Chronicle and the Primary Chronicle and edited the section covered by the latter. I removed a supposed alternate spelling from the Nikon Chronicle since a) this seems to be a simple difference in transliteration and b) my copy did not use this spelling.

This still needs work. I might try to summarize the Nikon Chronicle version of events in the future. But this is of course a much later and less trusted source.

Óli Gneisti (talk) 17:43, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Not of princely stock

This seems like propaganda by Oleg's supporters, rather than historical facts. This should be noted. 2A00:23C7:5882:8201:2D49:3489:5E4F:4B9 (talk) 22:00, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

We don't know. The NPL identifies Igor as the knyaz ("prince") of Kiev after they kill Askold and Dir, rather than Oleg, who is called a voevoda ("commander").

But:

• PVL chronology 18:10–12 identifies Oleg as Ольгова, Русьскаго кънязя Olĭgova, Rusĭskago k"nyaza "Oleg, prince of Rus'".
• PVL narrative 23:14–16 has Oleg self-identify as роду къняжа rodu k"nyaza "of princely stock/lineage".
• PVL narrative 23:22–23 narrates that сѣде ѡлегъ кнѧжа въ киевѣ sûde ooleg" knyaza v" kyevû "And Oleg sat down, reigning as prince in Kyevû"
• PVL narrative 33:4 identifies Oleg as отъ Ольга, великаго кънязя Русьскаго ot" Olĭga, velikago k"nyazya Rusĭskago "by/from Oleg, grand/great prince of Rus'".

These seem to indicate that Oleg reigned as prince suo jure ("in his own right"), rather than as a regent over Igor. Whether that is what the original text said (especially because the NPL contradicts it) is another question. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:17, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I hypothesize that if Askold and Dir were indeed of "princely" (i.e. Rurikid) stock, they were most likely younger brothers of Rurik as they clearly can't be sons of Rurik (Rurik's son and successor Igor was 1 year old at the time of Rurik's death (born 878) and couldn't have had any elder brothers, otherwise they would have inherited) and it is also unlikely that they would be sons of either of Rurik's two known younger brothers Sineus or Truvor (it is possible but unlikely that the children of a younger brother will be older that the children of an older brother). As for the regent vs prince debate, I think that Oleg was made regent for Igor, killed Askold and Dir in 882 (making himself prince of Kiev) before then declaring himself prince of Novgorod in 888. 2A00:23C7:5882:8201:98F7:211E:7B21:8B56 (talk) 21:15, 10 June 2023 (UTC)